I like the graph and your points. I simply don’t see DSA, even as the ML elements are pushing it left, becoming a Vanguard party or leading a revolution. Trying to materialize that from DSA is just going to lead to disappointment.
I think a org like PSL that has rigorous vetting in place should be a Vanguard org.
That doesn’t mean DSA has no role. I think where DSA is the best fit is as a gateway or on ramp for baby leftists to learn how to organize, how to become leaders, and how to shake off the Democratic party brainstorms they have been hammered with over decades. If DSA can completely break from the Dems and be that entry-point to Socialism then they can become an incubator for new revolutionary forces that a more advanced/focused org like PSL can lead. In a perfect world PSL and DSA would work more closely together and DSA folks would stop trying to make DSA something it can’t be. I’m trying in my little corner of burger land but 🤷♀️
I’m not really arguing for the DSA, I’m more in favor of the PSL. My point was more about organizing in general. I think you’re getting threads mixed-up, the DSA was brought up in another thread. I mostly agree with you here.
I simply don’t see DSA, even as the ML elements are pushing it left, becoming a Vanguard party or leading a revolution. Trying to materialize that from DSA is just going to lead to disappointment.
i agree with this. as much as i’m sure there are good comrades in caucuses like Red Star, i’m pretty unconvinced by their overall project.
I think a org like PSL that has rigorous vetting in place should be a Vanguard org.
that’s the idea/goal, yeah! but a Vanguard Party can’t just declare itself as such, it needs to be embedded in working class struggle to the point it earns the trust of the masses and they look to it for guidance and leadership and want to fight alongside it. that’s a long, difficult project but PSL is trying to build toward that horizon.
I think where DSA is the best fit is as a gateway or on ramp for baby leftists to learn how to organize, how to become leaders, and how to shake off the Democratic party brainstorms they have been hammered with over decades. If DSA can completely break from the Dems and be that entry-point to Socialism then they can become an incubator for new revolutionary forces that a more advanced/focused org like PSL can lead. In a perfect world PSL and DSA would work more closely together and DSA folks would stop trying to make DSA something it can’t be. I’m trying in my little corner of burger land but 🤷♀️
you cooked with this analysis, comrade! i would rather radlibs/baby leftists have a big net they can get caught in to do some kind of struggle rather than nothing, and which at its best will train them as organizers and expand their consciousness. it seems to me the biggest internal contradiction (or one of) re: DSA is how compatible this goal is with Democratic Party entryism. every now and again that tactic gets Ws for the movement in the form of electing a Mamdani-esque figure (who for all his limitations is still a net win), using a base of activists who tbh probably aren’t in that moment ready for struggle beyond a campaign like his. but then you have such a large swath of the org who see that as an end rather than a situational means to an end, and it seems like that absorbs energy that could be put toward more meaningful organizing.
I like the graph and your points. I simply don’t see DSA, even as the ML elements are pushing it left, becoming a Vanguard party or leading a revolution. Trying to materialize that from DSA is just going to lead to disappointment.
I think a org like PSL that has rigorous vetting in place should be a Vanguard org.
That doesn’t mean DSA has no role. I think where DSA is the best fit is as a gateway or on ramp for baby leftists to learn how to organize, how to become leaders, and how to shake off the Democratic party brainstorms they have been hammered with over decades. If DSA can completely break from the Dems and be that entry-point to Socialism then they can become an incubator for new revolutionary forces that a more advanced/focused org like PSL can lead. In a perfect world PSL and DSA would work more closely together and DSA folks would stop trying to make DSA something it can’t be. I’m trying in my little corner of burger land but 🤷♀️
I’m not really arguing for the DSA, I’m more in favor of the PSL. My point was more about organizing in general. I think you’re getting threads mixed-up, the DSA was brought up in another thread. I mostly agree with you here.
DSA ain’t the Vanguard. Will never be.
i agree with this. as much as i’m sure there are good comrades in caucuses like Red Star, i’m pretty unconvinced by their overall project.
that’s the idea/goal, yeah! but a Vanguard Party can’t just declare itself as such, it needs to be embedded in working class struggle to the point it earns the trust of the masses and they look to it for guidance and leadership and want to fight alongside it. that’s a long, difficult project but PSL is trying to build toward that horizon.
you cooked with this analysis, comrade! i would rather radlibs/baby leftists have a big net they can get caught in to do some kind of struggle rather than nothing, and which at its best will train them as organizers and expand their consciousness. it seems to me the biggest internal contradiction (or one of) re: DSA is how compatible this goal is with Democratic Party entryism. every now and again that tactic gets Ws for the movement in the form of electing a Mamdani-esque figure (who for all his limitations is still a net win), using a base of activists who tbh probably aren’t in that moment ready for struggle beyond a campaign like his. but then you have such a large swath of the org who see that as an end rather than a situational means to an end, and it seems like that absorbs energy that could be put toward more meaningful organizing.