Hey dude, I do appreciate the thorough and thoughtful response. I respect where you’re coming from and largely agree with most of what you’ve said, but I think a key point where we differ lies in our respective interpretations of homo homini lupus.

I’ll have to simmer on it for awhile myself to develop a more nuanced argument, but my first instinct is two-fold; there have always been wolves among us eager to rip our throats out, yet humanity continues to grow and progress despite (and frankly to spite) them. Man may be a wolf to man, but ape together strong and we are capable of overcoming the wolves in our midst.

Secondly, I think you’re letting the misanthropy in too deep. I think the injustices you and I and many others are witnessing, both in the music industry and the world at large, are the product of small men wielding outsized control, power and influence over those without. The music industry is a prime example of capital alienating the worker from their labor and that, I think, is the true root of the issues informing your disillusionment. I won’t go too deep down the anti-capitalism rabbit hole (this time) but I will pose to you a question; who benefits more from generative AI, the wolves or the apes?

As I said, I’ve got more thoughts to distill into coherency but that must needs happen in the light of day, not the grey of dawn.

That said, I’m absolutely capable of coherency when it comes to discussing heavy avant-garde and especially saxophone. Frankly you are likely the only person I’ve interacted with who is capable of appreciating this story;

I emailed Jørgen about…15 years ago at this point? After Ihsahn released After but likely before/around Blackjazz dropping. I was playing tenor sax in high school at the time and wanted to know if he’d transcribed any of his work on After. He replied! And told me “Sorry I made it all up on the spot” which was disappointing but also made me respect him all the more. I was on the barrier for the Nightside Eclipse anniversary tour a few months ago when I recognized the man setting the synth up. You should’ve seen the doubletake he did when I called out his name! Emperor obviously slayed, but that little interaction with Jørgen is my favorite memory of that night. His work has inspired me for a long time and I absolutely agree that saxophone as well as other traditionally orchestral/symphonic instrumentation is capable of fitting into metal and other non-traditional genres. Ne Obliviscaris is another prime example with their violinist.

The level of deconstruction (shoutout Hevy Devy) required to dismantle a genre and piece it back together in new ways, with new instruments and concepts and to make it all coherent is human creativity at it’s finest. You mentioned the sax to voice transition in Pho Que as an example of emergent creativity, but I posit (and insist) that those pieces already existed within the realm of humanities creativity. Vocoders have been in use in some form or another for a very very long time (Cynic’s Focus being my personal favorite) and connecting the dots between them and saxophone isn’t much of a leap IMO.

True musical innovation, true creativity comes from connecting much more disparate dots in new ways and our current socioeconomic systems are more than happy to replace those qualities with generative AI trained on stolen human creativity in order to line their pockets further. You’re absolutely correct that the machines aren’t killing us; their owners, however, are more than happy to build orphan-crushing machines. The wolves are absolutely the problem and they are shoveling slop at us to make us slow, stupid, and fat. Don’t fall for it.

I see where you’re coming from and will concede JMSL’s ability to algorithmically create music.

I still maintain an artist using that or similar software (Guitar Pro, etc.) to translate their own ideas into a more manipulateable form for composing/practicing is fundamentally different from prompting a genAI that has been trained on ideas stolen from actual artists.

That said, music written via formula to cater to the lowest common denominator and generate the greatest possible monetary return is certainly closer to how genAI is/will be used, but the human element involved in writing, recording, and performing that music still distinguishes it from the sort of slop showing up on Spotify. AI generated works are an exemplar of derivative beyond that of even the blandest pop. The only human involved is the prompt writer at best; lyrics, melody, the recording itself are statistical approximations and entirely devoid of human creativity and that is an utter tragedy.

I’d much rather the record companies be replaced with systems that don’t alienate the artists from their labor and creativity. Embracing slop is playing into the execs hands and removes all artistic merit from the process.

Quick edit; Generated slop training on generated slop is already a problem and will get exponentially as more platforms are flooded with it. That will only alienate and divorce it even further from reality. It will only get worse.

I created the scores in JMSLscore

He created the score. If you equate using scoring software, MIDI and synths to creating slop with genAI we’re done here my dude.

And I took that personally

Jørgen is my spirit animal and Arctopus fucking rules but this take is hot as fuck my dude. Real people making real music with real instruments is art. Generative AI takes our art and makes emotionless, sloppy approximations out of it. If you despise cookiecutter pop now you’re going to be blown away by the absolute drivel that is already being pumped out thanks to genAI. The only reason the song you linked is ‘imaginative’ is because a real human already imagined it only to have it tossed into the slop pile for a computer to root through. Wouldn’t you prefer the ‘actual’ musicians making ‘actual’ music be recognized instead of being buried even further under exponentially growing pools of emotionless notes arranged into emotionless music? The musicians you and I both appreciate for their creativity and skill are having that skill and creativity stolen from them and you’re cool with it because pop doesn’t innovate? Because musicians with decades of knowledge of their instruments and a variety of styles want a paycheck? Record execs have leeched off actual creativity for a solid century now and you want to end them with an even more soulless product that still doesn’t pay artists? It might start with pop but if you think avante-garde, cerebral music will be ignored you’re mistaken.

You fucking rule thank you kind gentlethem

Already subbed to ABMN, thanks for the other recs!

Also gotta rec some Transwoman Black Metal while I’m here;

https://genitalshame.bandcamp.com/album/lion-piss-arm-vulnerability

Classic, succint, relevant; Nazi Punks Fuck Off!

https://napalmdeath.bandcamp.com/album/the-best-of-napalm-death?t=3

I pursued an engineering BSc with the desire to emigrate but got distracted by the success of SpaceX and wooed by the challenge of Mars colonization. Then the US health insurance industry got in the way, I failed out and didn’t make it back until COVID. I graduated in 2022 with the first university degree in my family but was crippled by student loan debt and unable to save to leave. Was finally able to escape the rural Midwest a year ago and made it to a city with plenty of aerospace companies right as everyone stopped hiring. The cherry on top was the CEO of the company whose engineering feats initially inspired me throwing fascist salutes at inauguration.

Odd jobs and parental support have mostly kept me afloat, but they can’t help forever and I am a few months out from having to move back. The military industrial complex slid into my DMs recently with the offer of a fat paycheck and loaded resume in exchange for my ethics and morals. They even dangled a carrot of potential transfer to a NASA climate science project after the contract is up, but I’ll be surprised if it’s still funded by then. Frankly, I broke down when I realized the project I’d be working on.

I’ll hear back about the position early next week and I’m desperately hoping it’s a no and I’m back to the drawing board, but if it’s a yes I’ll be starting in a couple weeks. The BBB will very likely lead to losing the best, most effective and enabling healthcare I’ve received so far, and the salary would cover the insurance plan I’d need to maintain that care. Its a short contract and the salary would also enable me to save enough to emigrate but I already feel compromised. I’ve dreamed of contributing to space exploration and am instead being bullied into contributing to it’s militarization by a country I’ve opposed for the entirety of my adult life.

I’ve looked into joining the Ukrainian Foreign Legionnaires and would much rather contribute to European defense against Russia, but I honestly just want to pursue an MSc or even PhD and turn my brain towards mitigating and adapting to climate change. I’ve worked so fucking hard, dreamed so fucking big and bounced back from defeat time and time again for this? Fuck.

Tl;dr: Masters/PhD in Sweden or Germany but barring that I’ll work for any European defense company that will take an american immigrant.

Also, good luck sourcing salt water in Illinois.

Actually this year is “Nobody reaps what you’ve sown and it rots in the field” but that’s not as succinct.

I thought going into engineering would be a better environment for this kind of questioning. It turns out my toddler-level frequency of “Why?” transcends bachelor level expectations, thus I must pursue even higher education.

Walking into a contract with uncurious junior engineers was frustrating to say the least.

I’d imagine you can do everything on the website, which can likely be made into an ‘app’ on Firefox via the “Add to Home screen” option.

Dragons of Autumn Twilight, the first book in an excellent series that I haven’t read for 15+ years. Catching up with my old friends has been fantastic.

There’s a difference between feeling empathy and providing grace or forgiveness. It is absolutely acceptable and healthy to set boundaries on what you are capable of forgiving, but giving up empathy is a different story. Empathy is what makes us human, makes us care about each other. You absolutely can (and, IMO, should) keep caring about these people who have hurt you. If someone shares a true human connection with you, that matters. Thats what you should empathize with.

That said, people are products of their circumstances, environments, and the systems they grew up within. Depending on those factors, people may develop incredibly maladaptive behaviors, or be subject to untreated mental health issues; this can lead to unhealthy behaviors that harm those around them.

It is not your responsibility to fix them, nor guide them. Even if they recognize themselves as the source of their problems and wish to change and grow, it is still not your job to drag them through that process. Actively caring for someone isn’t the only option. Caring for someone can be remote, can be passive or entirely uninvolved in their life. You are absolutely allowed to set those boundaries, or to set more open boundaries and do what you can to help them if you wish.

To stop caring for them altogether, however, is a mistake. If you genuinely connect with and care about someone, hang onto that. Hang onto your love for fellow humans because that empathy, that love is what keeps humans growing and moving forward. It is okay to separate yourself from those who harm you, okay to leave someone to their journey, but to stop caring for them dehumanizes yourself just as much as it dehumanizes them.

Could you elaborate on “needless levels of empathy”?

Because they wouldn’t get to that position if they were just plain stupid.

Counterpoint: Trump

The influence of money outweighs intelligence every time, which is precisely why your second statement holds true.

Post-war, attach collection hooks to non-fiber drones?

I dunno, absolutely better than mines though.

I tried this a few days ago, but Overdrive only had 2 ‘copies’ of the 30+ year old novel I wanted and the waitlist was 10 weeks so I added another “Fuck capitalism for…” to my list.

No, you see, they meant “This-shit-for-brain-cell’s logic;” the shit cell is singular.